Developers, Community, Progress

Eoin Coffey ecoffey at
Wed Apr 30 21:04:46 EDT 2008

2008/4/30 Gary Kramlich <grim at>:

> MonoApe wrote:
> > Gary Kramlich wrote:
> >> The users contribute?
> >
> > That explains part of the problem.  Yes, users contribute.  Not always
> > with lines of code, but they contribute ideas, bug reports,
> > encouragement, criticism and a sounding board for design decisions.
> So you've contributed what here?  Bringing the issue to our attention?
> I see no ideas for how to improve the situation, aside from you implying
> that we need to just roll it back.  That's not productive and won't
> happen.  Even though I myself initially found the new behavior annoying,
> I've grown my more accustomed to it over time.
> >> If Pidgin we would be making money off of it, which it would then most
> >> likely be our primary source of income.
> >
> > So, you're saying that if you were drawing income from Pidgin, you'd
> > listen to the community?  As you're not, you're entitled to say 'fuck
> > you'?  Do you think this attitude increases or decreases the likelihood
> > of future financial success?
> No I'm saying being able to continue paying ones bills is good enough
> motivation to do what others want.  However, just because people are
> using their free time to contribute to something they see as worth
> while, does not mean they have to listen to anyone.
> You're holding us (the developers) up on a platter.  What would you do
> if for one reason or another, every single one of the current Pidgin
> developers were no longer able to work on Pidgin for one reason or
> another?  I'm guessing you would try to coax someone you know that knows
> how to program to step in.
> As for the future financial success, let me ask you this.  What more do
> we, the developers of a program you obviously enjoyed using before the
> input auto-sizing change, owe you?  I hate to say it this way, but we're
> already giving you an alternative to which you have full control over.
> Not just by plugins (and last I checked, none of the commercial im
> programs allow hobbyists to write plugins), but by giving you the source
> code to change it as well.  So what if you don't know how to code.  Take
> some time and maybe look at it, who knows, you might actually be able to
> understand it, and fix the problems you see with it.  But to sit there
> and bark orders at us when we've already given plenty (in my opinion),
> and you've given us nothing (ideas to fix the problem, etc), is just
> selfish.
> >
> >> listen to your own advice and try to be rational.
> >
> > No idea what you're referring to.
> >
> >> Why should we listen to you when you're looking down your nose at us,
> >> contradicting the very things you're calling us out on.
> >
> > Again, no idea what you mean here.  I've called out a design decision
> > and subsequent reaction by devs that many people have been very unhappy
> > with.  There's no contradiction on my part or 'looking down my nose'
> > (whatever that means in this context).
> You're looking down your nose because you've claimed we're ignoring you,
> damaging our own community, and insulted us.  You've taken it upon
> yourself to only show one side of this issue, hiding everything you and
> the rest of the users are doing and only pointing out what the
> developers are doing.  Now, I'm no rocket scientist, but to portray a
> self serving delusion of the facts, is, in itself, a contradiction.
> >> ...shame on you for making me waste the little time I have responding
> >> to this email
> >
> > No one forced you to do anything.  You could've ignored me, just as the
> > passionate pleas for a UI rollback have been ignored....
> And no one forces us to work on Pidgin either right... Oh that's right,
> you're trying to systematically force us to change something you don't
> agree with, with absolutely nothing to contribute.
> --
> Gary Kramlich <grim at>
> _______________________________________________
> Devel mailing list
> Devel at

In order to do justice to this altruistically titled thread I'd like to talk
about ways to handle these "big feature upsets".  Seems like there should be
a more....uh prescribed way to deal with these so that people who actually
get work done (unlike me) don't have to get wrapped up in these mostly
emotional discussions.

On a separate note I'm ranging on don't mind to actually liking the new
auto-resizing.  Actually the new color of blue for the notified message in
the tab bugs me way more since it hurts my eyes :-P

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